From athletic B to a thundering D.I have posted a full review of the new Thundercats here.
Cartoon Network is releasing a new Thundercats show. Aside from the fact that Lion-O is apparently voiced by some prepubescent 15-year-old boy, it was Cheetara that pissed me off the most. (A number of people have pointed out who voices Lion-O. I am well aware that it is Will Friedle. I looked at the cast before writing this. I still don't like the voice. He sounds like his testicles haven't formed yet, which is impossible for a man who looks like a body builder.)
Let's break down the new Cheetara in comparison to the gold standard, the actual Cheetara.
Is there a fucking chunk missing from her?! Where the hell are her internal organs? Why does she look 17, yet have breasts that would net her lifetime membership as a Playboy centerfold?
Why doesn't she look like, I dunno', a woman? A woman who is capable of doing things, like saving the day?
And this is only the beginning. They repeatedly misspell WilyKit and WilyKat in the written media.
They spell the names differently ON THE SAME PAGE.And as WilyKit so wonderfully illustrates, having a bare midriff is apparently one of the defining characteristics of being female in modern cartoons. Just like in Teen Titans, where 50% of the female population is bare! Except for the outsider goth chick. She's the only one covered. What the fuck is this? The Breakfast Club with 25% more fiber and sexism? And notice how the females have their legs and feet posed compared to the males? Yeah.
Remember girls, don't stand too strong or you risk being intimidating to boys!Obviously, this blog is somewhat predicated on the objectification of women, but I make it explicit, and also make sure to explicitly state that images are just that, images. Women are not actual objects, they are people! Cartoon obectification, like with Betty Boop, is fun precisely because it is cartoonish. No one has ever aspired to look like Jessica Rabbit or Betty Boop.
When we try to sell narratives to kids, we're selling a huge package of ideas, values, concepts, and images to them. If we want to sell them strong female characters, we need to sell them something that isn't so stupid-sexist. REAL women are not objects. REAL women are capable. REAL women can be strong heroes without also being sexy. When we make cartoon versions of comics for kids, we should avoid copying over the worst aspects of comic books, such as the almost comical level of female objectification and sexism.
Compare this to Harry Potter, because, why not? It's big. It has female characters. Like Hermione. Is she sexy? Does she spend all of her time in skin-tight spandex with her belly button showing? NO! Of course she doesn't! Because she is an actual character, whose values come from her actions and personality, not because she's got a flat stomach.
I mean, what the HELL is next?! Are we going to see a Wonder Woman cartoon where she's selling diet pills, or Tygra offering Ripped Fuel in episode 2?
To the creators of the new Thundercats. Thanks for ass-fucking my childhood memories. Go fuck yourselves. And learn how to spell.
UPDATE: Comics Alliance has a good article discussing the rampant sexism in comics that I see here. It's annoying in the comic book world, but it is positively infuriating in a TV show aimed primarily at children.
UPDATE: I've received more comments on this post than any post I've ever done, so please take the time to read the other comments and responses before commenting yourself.
And while I have posted a few of them to make a point, I will delete any posts that are basically just swearing at me.
BOO FUCKING HOO.
ReplyDeleteYour string of trenchant comments continues.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous? Really? At times I truly hate the internet because it gives every ignorant loudmouth a venue in which to spew their inane opinions, under the protection of anonymity. I thought the entry made a valid, very important point. The portrayal of females in cartoons feels out-dated and chauvinistic. Is this 1950, or 2011? Because sometimes it's hard to tell.
ReplyDeleteYour opinion is your opinion, thing is, this is a reboot, by that definition alone, they're not trying to bring it back the same. Also, they all except for Panthro are supposed to be younger.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteYeah, it's a reboot. I appreciate that. I'm still pissed. They're supposed to be younger, since this is before the fall of Thundera, but that only gives a pass to Lion-O's voice. He sounded young in the first series, too, but only for half of the first episode.
Turning Cheetara into a twisted Playboy model is right out, though. No excuse.
I don't expect it to be the same, certainly. But why make a cartoon from today more sexist than a cartoon from 1985? Why take one of the worst elements from comics when it wasn't there to begin with? I don't like it.
Compare this to the portrayal of the female characters in Avatar: The Last Airbender. Lots of the women are still rocking bare midriffs, which is annoying, but good god, it was better than this.
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU AARON! So glad I am not the only one. What the fuck new producers get your act together??
ReplyDeleteYolo,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that I'm not the only one who is, like, infuriated by this. Ugh.
I don't see sexism.
ReplyDeleteI see a female character drawn to standards of beauty and fashion set in stone in the media today.
As the one yelling sexism around here, I have to ask. Are you personally a sexist?
Especially as the character being animated and designed by the Japanese, who's cultural differences with us dictate what we find offensive they do not....
Anime, for instance, has a long history of having strong female character that express the ideal form that society portrays.
You act as if Cheetara from the 80's series was any less of a playboy model, made in the days of who had bodies like Farrah Fawcett and were idolised for it.
The difference being that today we idolise women like Jenna Jameson.
It's not sexism, it's just different times. Different standards
And for your example of Avatar : TLA. It was entirely based on asian culture and the artform of such people. You tend to forget they also based the fashion off it as well, and bare midriffs are prevelant in that culture.
ReplyDeleteYou're hunting ghosts in an empty graveyard.
I am anonymous and I disagree with OP.
ReplyDelete>XP
Hi, um, first Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYou made a few good points and I will address them.
First, beauty standards are not set in stone anywhere. They fluctuate wildly even within the United States, and especially from country to country. I do not see an example of character designers abiding extant sexism and simply accepting it, I see them as PART of the sexism. Comic book females have been absurd even by the exaggerated standards of today's beauty.
It's for this reason that I find the new Cheetara so annoying. The first one was certainly sexist, and portrayed an unrealistic physical form, but this one is worse. Much, much worse. While the first Cheetara had a semi-realistic form, this one does not. She has no space for organs or ribs. It is insane that we became more sexist in the quarter-century separating the two. Our "different" standards are worse standards.
Moreover, this has nothing to do with cultural differences. Sexism is bad in every country whether they find it offensive or not.
About Avatar, yes, it was based on Asian culture. But bare midriff's are not at all part of their dress, no more than it is ours. Culturally, bare midriff is common in India and some parts of Southeast Asia.
Finally, your statement that it isn't sexism; I disagree vehemently. Men of all shapes and sizes are allowed to be heroes, even in comics. Women have to be pretty as well. We can't have ugly girls saving the day, can we? Look at the above Teen Titans picture. What sex are the green mutant and cyborg?
Again, that's not to say that many comic book artists and writers are aware of this have said explicitly that they are trying new things. If for no other reason than sales are dropping and they want to engage an otherwise ignored female market. But those people represent a small percentage of the industry.
For example, I looked up the list of X-men characters. Hundreds of characters, I found six women who were portrayed as deformed in some way.
One is a werewolf, Wolfsbane, but is totally hot when human. Stacy-X who has snake skin and who's mutant abilities include, I'm not joking, the ability to give people orgasms. The always popular Marrow who, along with Feral who looks like a fuzzy woman, are the only ones I really count as deformed. Nocturne, who looks like a sexed-up version of Nightcrawler. And finally, No-Girl, who is a brain in a jar. Any fucked up bodies? Nope. All of their bodies are perfect. Their skin is just weird.
Ok lets get one thing straight. it's a fucking cartoon that came from a comic. it doesn't have to look real.
DeleteAnd tell me when a cheeta has to have a ton of space for Organs. does it really matter. it sounds to me like your just ranting your ass off about it. yeah in avatar they have a huge breast size, but who gives a fuck. it's a cartoon. why be pissed about it, just dont watch it, and they will have to make it better. if you want to complain about it, then make a dam petition. Seriously, lets use some common sense. And there voices. Who gives a fuck, as long as it sounds kinda close to what it should be it's ok. not to mention the fact that it's on Cartoon network, A Kid's tv central.
Your definitely sexist.
Re-read your Reply to Anonymous#5..
Thank you for your astute, competent, and grammatically correct comment.
DeleteFair dinkum, they're selling tits to men. It's no surprise that they are portraying women in a particular, sexual way. My reason for being pissed off is that these expectations and images are being sold to young boys when they weren't TWENTY-FIVE years ago. We already have huge issues with misogyny and sexism, especially amongst the comic book/video game crowd. We do not want to be fostering this.
ReplyDeleteAnd finally, I've always found the portrayal of women stupid not for self-righteous reasons, but because THEY LOOK LIKE PLAYBOY MODELS. At least the men have muscles! At least the men look like they could save the day. I'm sorry, no Playboy model is saving the day anytime soon. It's just narratively stupid. Like the "armor" that women wear? Oh yeah. Bare midriff is a great idea to protect you from injury.
P.S. Anime has no such long history. There are a few examples of strong characters, but those usually follow some hilariously over-used stereotype. The whispy quiet one, the booze-hound, the harpy... actually, those are really the only ones.
That is not to say that anime doesn't have good examples, but they are few, and the only salient ones that I can think of are all Hayao Miyazaki's.
P.P.S. I find your question about whether I am sexist strange.
If I was, do you think I would know about it? Self-awareness kind of negates sexism in the same way that it negates racism. So, I guess, to answer your question, no, I am not sexist. I classify myself as a feminist and read feminist blogs like Jezebel and Feministing, along with sites like The Good Men Project, every day.
Bare midriff nothing. The original Thundercats were introduced NAKED. Your argument is invalid.
ReplyDeleteWow... you're an idiot. You're exaggerating the new Cheetara's looks so much it's not even funny. Seriously, your post reads as a hissy fit.
ReplyDeleteDid you even watch the show, because if you did you would have seen the new Cheetara saving Lion-O's ass twice and kicking butt.
Using sexy images to attract a wider audience? And you are somehow surprised by this? You think this is something *new*? You're a fucking banal pissant. Pandering to your self-righteous perma-virgin fembros. None of this is new. Peopple have been "selling tits to men" for goddamn centuries you uncultured fuck.
ReplyDeleteReally, honestly think you're over blowing this, man. Yeah, she's sexier now. What's your point? That this creates an unrealistic standard of beauty for girls and sells sex to kids? Honest to God, when I was a kid, that was the last thing I thought about when watching a cartoon.
ReplyDeleteIn the show, she's basically as strong as any of the male characters. She's intelligent and was even one of the clerics. Yeah, she doesn't NEED to look as sexual as she does, but whatever. It's not that big of a deal. Sexual liberation is part of feminism too.
Cheetara is obviously supposed to be an attractive female, hence why Lion-o and Tygra are shocked by her beauty.
ReplyDeleteShe is also a cheetah anthromoph, hence why she is a much lither build compared to the others, look at the high priest, he was also very slim.
But oh wait, you are some pussywhipped feminist who thinks attractive people in media =/= bad.
You are totally going to avoid the fact that Cheetarah was the most compitent fighter of the group and by her actions shown as a cleric being a very important woman, but just because she is a pretty woman just must just be fan-wankery.
You are sexist as fuck, just because she is attractive doesn't mean she is a useless waif.
Women objectify men just as much as men objectify women. Congrats, both genders are not so different. Women can be just as shallow and peverted as men can be.
ReplyDeleteAnd the guys who made this cartoon are doing what they must to survive in a world where making a wrong descision could basically cause them to get thrown to the wolves by the network.
Human civilzation's perceptions have warped yes, but in this world, going with the flow is what sells these days, lest you want to get thrown to the wolves and waste all that money you just spent making your show.
What I am trying to get at here is that the whole world is warped and people are just trying to survive in the corporate world.
>Complaining about unrealistic body proportions
ReplyDelete>Not realizing the character is an alien that resembles a cat
>Complaining that a cat-alien thing doesn't look realistically human
How does it feel to be retarded?
>What sex are the green mutant and cyborg?
ReplyDeleteAre you implying that there's something wrong with Cyborg aesthetically? He's part robot (which most people find cool) and he's black, those are his only defining characteristics. Which one do you claim makes him ugly?
This is a pretty terrible article, and your examples are reaching.
ReplyDeleteClearly you were too busy staring at the new Cheetara's breasts to note that she appears to be one of the most powerful characters on the show, repeatedly outdoing main character Lion-O in combat as a Cleric of Jaga, and even demonstrating that she is a match for heavyweight Tygra in this reboot. This wasn't a token unefficacious 'GIRL POWER' demonstration, either, which is the feminist ideal: a female who you can take on her own merits.
Every other episode of the 80s Thundercats, Cheetara needed to be saved from Mumm-Ra or worse, his bag of incompetent cronies. You have ignored this in order to write an irate blog post to demonstrate your wit while lambasting something you have deemed horribly offensive.
As well, in this show, you have focused more on misspellings of Wilykit and Wilykat's names rather than note fairly to your readership that the brother and sister have received a competency and characterization that far outweighs the first iteration of Thundercats.
If anything, competency, mystery and character are being sold to children with this new show where they were sorely lacking in the 24 minute long lunchbox and merchandise commercial Thundercats decades prior, your personal problems with the character design notwithstanding.
In short, you missed the point, jackass.
You seem to be implying that Cheetara wasn't just a sex symbol in the first series too.
ReplyDeleteYou know, a lot of people like you back in the day prolly said the same about old cheetara that you're saying about current cheetara.
ReplyDeleteNot that it matters since you're stupidly judging based in looks and obviously havent seen the character in action.
Leave it to a terminally single dude to think he knows what he's talking about regarding tits or animation styles in general.
ReplyDeleteAs a girl who was raised on the original show and found good points about the new one, "shut up neckbeard".
Respectfully, I think you're just searching for stuff to have gripes about. She's scantly dressed, yes, but so what? She's not being pandered as a sexual object like many other cartoons, with focused shots towards her more voluptuous regions and such.
ReplyDeleteHer design is fantastic and modern; and she looks very attractive.She also looks and acts competent within the frame-work of the setting.
What did you want? Her to be fully armored and fully covered in clothing, her skin not showing anything? Cant she be confident in her sexuality and show skin if she feels like it?
"I mean, what the HELL is next?! Are we going to see a Wonder Woman cartoon where she's selling diet pills, or Tygra offering Ripped Fuel in episode 2?"
ReplyDeletehahahe he doesn't think Wonder Woman was always a sexist picture of femininity created by men to enact bondage scenarios.
You neglect to mention that in the new series she's the most competent fighter, a member of Thundera's elite warrior clerics and saves Lion-o's ass in her first scene. She does it again twenty minutes later, defeating more attackers than either Lion-O or Tigra did when faced with the angry mob.
ReplyDeleteI hate sexism in media as much as anyone else, but your entire argument is based around the fact that she is drawn attractively. Couldn't you make the same argument that the male heroes are sexist because they're drawn in an idealised way - toned, muscular young men for fangirls to drool over?
How can you be fine with the objectification of a "fun" character like Betty Boop, who spends most of her cartoons running away from lascivious males, yet you draw the line at this new version of Cheetara because she has a bare midriff?
This Cheetara didn't need saving, isn't fawning over Lion-O and doesn't have the personality of a ficus plant. It's like calling Ripley from the Alien movies a sexist character because she flirted with Corporal Hicks.
Dear Aaron,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I would recommend that from now on, you might want to lose this antagonistic streak in your reviews. An opinion is an opinion, but you can do this well-articulated, and posit your point with well-formed arguments, or do as you did here, and completely destroy any credibility by using words as "ass-fucking ".
Furthermore, while I agree with you on general, with how women are portrayed in media, I disagree with your singling out of this issue, both in this cartoon, as in general.
First of all, Cheetara looks good, But then again, she always did. Even in the original series, her character design was appealing, for that time. Nowadays, she seems oldfashioned, and timid in looks, but for the time, and for what was allowed on the TV screen, she was a sex-symbol. Claiming she's more one now than she was twenty0five years ago is a fallacy. Just look at the massive amounts of non-PG material of her out on the internet. And as for the fact that she isn't realistic: She's a feline humanoid, with superspeed, set in a magical world. Realism has kinda been thrown out of the window by that point, wouldn't you agree? But looking good in and of itself is not a crime. More important are her actions. And in this new cartoon, it's not Tigra or Lion-O who is the most capable, but Cheetara. She's the best fighter, and clearly has no need for anyone, let alone a man, to lend her aid. Don't judge a book by its cover is the proverb that comes to mind here.
And there is a greater point to be made here about rolemodels. You yourself say that the men all have muscles. They are well-trained, look good, have a powerful presence. How is this realistic for young men? Are they not set to the same impossible standard that women are set to? Unless I take steroids, I will never be able to look the part of Spider-man, or Colossus, or even Lion-O. So, no, not 'men of all shapes are allowed to be heroes'. Even in the picture you provided, beast-Boy and Cyborg habe apealing shapes. They don't look deformed. They are either wirey, or broad, but the only hero I know that differentiates from those appealing shapes, is Bouncing Boy, from the Legion of Superheroes.
So, is Cheetara sexist? No more than any other comic or cartoon protagonist, be they male or female. And, in fact, by being the msot capable character in her show, she breaks that stereotype quite well, being a character whose worth is not based on her looks, but on what she can do. And isn't that what is most important?
~Different Anonymous,
I can't help but notice that Panthro wears a tiny Aladdin vest, his chest and sexy abs are completely exposed. Why is that not a problem but Wilykit and Cheetara having bare midriffs is? It seems to me that the Thundercats wear less clothes in general. Does that need to be a problem? Do you support the general adoption of burkas and the like?
ReplyDeleteAlso you might notice that Cheetara is a cartoon (exaggerated physical traits) version of a cheetah (skinny animal built for running fast) mixed with a human woman. I don't see anything ridiculous about her build in light of those facts. Maybe her boobs could stand to be smaller but is it sexist that they aren't? I don't think so. No more sexist than Panthro being a hulked out mountain of muscle which few men in the real world could hope to compare with.
Jesus, you need help.
ReplyDeleteQuite frankly, I am more insulted by the fact that Cheetara got the least character development out the three heroes that managed to escape from Thundera.
ReplyDeleteBut, going by what little we know about her background and personality, she is a capable warrior and was even one of the clerics. It'll be interesting to see whether or not the writers expand upon it.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that, even with a sexy design, this new Cheetara still has the potential to become an interesting character.
Haters gonna hate
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if I saw the same show as you. The one I saw had Cheetara show significantly more fighting ability than Lion-o. Seems like a strong female character to me.
ReplyDeleteThe old Cheetara was so incredibly indecent. Showing off her gams like that? I can't believe this is what we let our children watch!
ReplyDeleteI for one am glad that cartoon network has at least some semblance of decency as to cover her legs just the tiniest bit.
This blog is pretty sexist against men.
ReplyDeleteJust look at the males in this show. Their bodies are covered in rippling muscles. One of them is twice the size of Lion-O! How much steroids will a five year old be taking in the future to meet these unreasonable standards? If you think women don't find these body types sexy, well, that's pretty sexist as well.
Your problem shouldn't be with the sexism towards women, it should be with the shows entire aesthetic being based around sexualization. Not that I have a problem with this, but apparently you do.
So what you are saying is that attractive women can't be useful?
ReplyDeleteYou sound pretty sexist yourself to me. I think you need to work out a few of your own issues before you start accusing others.
It's only your opinion. I think the new Thundercats is a fresh breath of air from all the smut Cartoon Network has been showing lately.
ReplyDeleteTell me, are you also upset at how Lion-O looks? I don't mean the new one, I mean the old partially clothed one.
ReplyDeleteI mean that seems pretty bad to me, he's got a lot of exposed flesh and is clearly designed by sexist female animators just trying to squeeze in eye candy for themselves.
Or is it possible that people just like attractive designs for their characters?
Good gods, are your stupid?. You are complaining about a realism in a fantasy cartoon. Wow, you are full of shit, also, stop being a mangina, grow a pair and be a man.
ReplyDeleteAaron,
ReplyDeleteYou're right. They were all introduced nude. And being cat people, I'll accept that. It was even between the males and females, except for Jaga, and was not associated with being sexy. No problems, there.
Anonymous #1,
ReplyDeleteI'm not arguing that the character might not be portrayed strongly. I'm saying that in comics, and this show, women are as defined by their physical appearance as their abilities.
And my post is a hissy fit. I'm angered by the absurdity of a character who, when looking like that, couldn't kick the ass of a Boy Scout.
Anonymous #3,
ReplyDeleteI'M the uncultured one? Read your own post.
Anonymous #4,
ReplyDeleteI agree that sexual liberation is part of feminism, but this isn't that. This is eye candy for men, which is fine. But I don't want kids being increasingly exposed to these values. Our culture screws them up enough, why amplify this as time goes on?
Anonymous #5,
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that she can't be attractive. The first Cheetara was very attractive. I'm saying that while the first Cheetara looked at least SEMI-realistic and physically ready for battle, this Cheetara looks like a teenager with implants. NO ONE with breasts that big will ever do much of anything very physical.
Anonymous #6,
ReplyDeleteWomen certainly do objectify men. And the need to appeal to an audience is a point well made.
But then, my attack goes after the network and everything up from the creators that fostered this absurd image.
Avatar: TLA was a huge success. Women were portrayed well. Success, even in the modern entertainment environment, and some form of standards are not antithetical.
Especially when one considers the wild disconnection of cartoons with girls. Girls don't watch. This is the reason why.
Hurr fucking durr,
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm complaining because they're basically people with cat-ish features. I'm sorry. That excuse doesn't hold water. They're as "alien" as a Vulcan.
Anonymous #7,
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that the twisted ones, the ones that are messed up in some way are almost never female. The females must always be attractive because their value is as much about their appearance as their character.
I did a search through the X-Men character list and found five females, one of which is a brain in a jar, that aren't also hot. And one of them has the special power of using pheromones to give people orgasms. Oh yeah. There are dozens of deformed male characters.
Anonymous #8,
ReplyDeleteI was saying nothing about her character. I don't care about her character. I'm saying that her physical form is just as important as what her character does or says. The value of a character is in actions, not image. That does not apply to women.
I also ignored nothing. I'm saying that the image of Cheetara is more sexist than the old one. That was twenty-five years ago. We should have moved past the sexism of friggin' 1985.
Same goes to Wilykit and Kat. I am NOT ARGUING that this show is bad. Hell, by any critical standard, the original Thundercats was terrible. I'm saying that these sexist, female-as-eye-candy tropes are annoying and should be excised from media intended for kids. We should have moved BEYOND the original, not stagnated.
As such, you missed my point, jackass.
Anonymous #9,
ReplyDeleteI am not implying that she wasn't a sex symbol. I'm arguing that instead of moving past the old Cheetara being a rather useless character, they've amplified one of the worst elements of female characters.
Anonymous #10,
ReplyDeleteI am entirely basing my criticism on her image. That's all that matters for the sake of the article.
Anonymous #11,
ReplyDeleteI've been married for four years.
Moreover, I know lots about animation and style. I was not arguing that there were NO good points. I am arguing that this single point is very bad.
Anonymous #12,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the respect. I've received a lot of hate for this post.
I would argue that her design is modern but not fantastic. I actually think it's very derivative and ungainly. But that's a technical argument beyond the scope of this article.
I certainly think that she could show skin, but she's not a real person. She is a creation of a bunch of men. If she was a real person, she could do whatever she wanted.
That's the less self-righteous core of my problem with this. Women's "armor" is so stupid. She's going out into, at least theoretically, deadly battle. Yeah. She should be wearing something significant. Maybe Kevlar.
"I'm saying that these sexist, female-as-eye-candy tropes are annoying and should be excised from media intended for kids."
ReplyDeleteExcept that she's not just eye candy. Oh yeah, she looks attractive, but that doesn't prevent her from being a compelling character.
With every comment you post, your argument is stretched that much thinner. You're the one fixated on her appearance. Most other people watching the new episodes are talking about how much of a badass she is.
Anonymous #13,
ReplyDeleteI didn't say that! :D
Yeah. Wonder Woman had lots of sexist stuff associated with it, but it was at least a step forward at the time.
Conor,
ReplyDeleteI didn't neglect to mention anything about her character. It has nothing to do with the post. I'm pissed off because of the physical portrayal of women.
Moreover, my argument is not about her being drawn attractively, but absurdly. She is so far beyond the realm of possibility that it's stupid. The original Cheetara was within the realm of possibility and was certainly an attractive form.
And this is nothing like Ripley. She was not at all a sex symbol. She was simply a female. This Cheetara's appearance is 100% sex.
Different Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI very much appreciate the tone of your comment. I do not regret my usage of foul language since I think it very well communicated my seething hatred for her design. I've done this on other posts as well.
I agree that this is singling out a particular manifestation of broader social issues. I did it because I felt that it was the most absurd recent example of this form of sexism aimed at kids. There's sexism even more absurd in comics, where some of the females have breasts that would exceed anything available at Frederick's of Hollywood. But, again, this is being aimed at boys. These boys will grow up in a world that already encourages unrealistic perceptions. I want more cartoons like Avatar.
And also, as I've mentioned in some other responses but will do again here for continuity's sake, I was saying nothing of the show. My problem is that in the comic book world, the value of female characters is as much defined by their looks as their actions. As opposed to men, who can be heroes while also being deformed. Female characters are almost never deformed.
I did a study of X-Men characters and found five females who are deformed, and even then, the deformity is light. Except for Marrow.
Also, I agree that males are being shown extreme body images, but the old characters were also 'roided up monsters. They haven't made them worse, which is the reason why I didn't focus on that. I'm actually working on an article right now about negative male images in cartoons.
So, yes, she is sexist like anything else, but in the world of kid's shows, her sexism is exaggerated beyond anything I've seen before. For example, the Teen Titans. There is sexism there, but it's muted. The male characters are also muted and not quite as hilariously ripped.
Your point about standards of the time only brings the current Cheetara to an equal level with the old Cheetara, physically. That was over a quarter-century ago. We should have moved on, not gotten worse.
Anonymous 2.0,
ReplyDeleteI am all about the negative male images of 'roided up maniacs. I'm actually working on an article about that. It didn't impress me as much as Cheetara because the difference between the old, muscley males and the new ones was smaller than the difference with the increasingly-fecund Cheetara.
Anonymous... 20?
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that the show is bad. I'm saying that this element of it is very bad.
Also, Cartoon Network has a few good shows. You're right, though, lots of it is crap.
Conor,
ReplyDeleteMy argument isn't being stretched thinly at all. It has nothing to do with her actions.
It has to do with the fact that in comic books, and now with this show, females' value is judged not just by the character's action, however badass she might be, but also by her appearance. This is absolutely true in comic books and has apparently made the move to kids' shows.
I'm fixated on her appearance because it's so salient. She is beyond a Playboy model and her physical form could never kick anyone's ass.
People, it is just a cartoon, so stop overanalyzing it and either enjoy it or don't watch it.
ReplyDeleteAbout the roided up maniacs comment, that's just again a sign of the times. In the 90s if you looked at glamor models they would resemble Cheetara, right down to the silly leotard. The reason why the males aren't as seemingly different is just a cultural change in the "ideal" looking man. A change from Arnolds to DiCaprios.
ReplyDeleteAny I see no problems with her body not matching her "physical ability" since it's pretty clear she's magic as all hell and no matter what kind of body she had she would be unable to do the things she does in the first episode alone.
It's magic, it would be like arguing that the Sword of Omens is stupid because there's no way a sword could really make lightning.
And this is coming from someone who greatly enjoys literally strong female characters, you're just getting bent out of shape over nothing and whining on the internet about it.
Cheetara is based off a cheetah. If you look at a real life Cheetah, then her new build is fine. The male adult guys are buff because the cats they are based off of are powerhouses. Cheetahs aren't buff, they are made to maximize their speed and flexibility.
ReplyDeletehttp://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/8/894/3STJ000Z/posters/cheetah-running.jpg
It's not sexiest. More like anatomically correct for her base species.
Anonymous #??
ReplyDeleteCheetara is based more off of a human than a Cheetah. Cheetah's do not have double-D boobs nor do they have birthin' hips. She is based of a Cheetah in only the aesthetic details.
Aaron, the only thing you seem to be focused on is Cheetarah's breasts so why can't you get your mind out of the gutter and stop wining about a remake of a cartoon from the 80's, it didn't matter then' it doesn't matter now
ReplyDeleteAnonymous #??
ReplyDeleteMy mind is nowhere near the gutter. I'm arguing that the minds of creators are far closer than mine.
I'm also arguing that it certainly mattered then and matters now. The portrayal of women in media has always been distorted, but this takes the cake in children's shows. Sexism is bad. We should have moved beyond the sexism that defined much of the old portrayal of Cheetara.
I mean for Pete's sake, Cheetara is named Beautiful Feline in the French version of the show! Oh yeah. Her character is all that matters.
Again Aaron, you seem to ignore the men. These guys are unrealistically fit, incredibly toned, and most of them aren't covered up in full armor either.
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be the sexist one here, only able to see from the female side from some reason.
Child baring hips. Go back to the cheetah picture. The mid-drift shrinks. Of course her chest and hips would appear larger. She needs the larger chest for her lungs/heart and the hips to support the acrobatics she has to do. The original Cheetara has more human over cheetah. The new one takes more Cheetah over human.
ReplyDeleteHey spelling cop, CN.com fixed their Wiley-goof, but your poll on the right spells Rogue as "Rouge".
ReplyDeleteYadda yadda glass house, throw rocks, yadda yadda I don't care.
TK,
ReplyDeleteIt's not that I'm ignoring the men. In fact, I'm working on an article that analyzes increasingly unrealistic physical portrayals of men.
I focused on Cheetara because the men in the old cartoon were hilariously jacked just as they are now. Cheetara was the only one who went through a wild physical transformation from the old one to this one.
Anonymous #??
ReplyDeleteI don't buy that, because boobs do not contain lungs. But let's go with it for argument's sake.
Why is she the only one who went towards the feline form? Why do all of the men simply look like men with makeup on? And why do all of the men look very similar to how they did in the first cartoon?
Anonymous #%$
ReplyDeleteI wrote that poll well over a year ago and I simply keep it up. I noticed the error as well. This is of a different caliber, though. It would be like me misspelling "Cartoon" in my logo.
OP is clearly another faggot living in the 80s.
ReplyDelete80s cartoons were worthless.
Wow, a wave of butthurt 4chan posters rising up to defend a show that has 1 FUCKING EPISODE out.
ReplyDelete"Lion-O is apparently voiced by some prepubescent 15-year-old boy,"
ReplyDelete...that would be Will Friedle, star of the absolutely outstanding Batman Beyond and pretty much the perfect choice for a young man unexpectedly thrust, by his father's death, into the role of hero while trying to escape his predecessor's long shadow.
If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that the reason Lion-O sounds like a prepubescent 15-year-old in this series is that LION-O IS A PREPUBESCENT 15-YEAR-OLD IN THIS SERIES.
Agree with you on the new Cheetara model (it is AWFUL), but you'd make the point more convincingly if you didn't come across as completely ignorant in your second sentence.
Thad,
ReplyDeleteI amended my post because many others have made the same point. I knew who it was. I read all of the info on the show.
Lion-O is physically well into his twenties. He's built like a tank. And if he's only 15, then Cheetara, who's old enough to be some ass-kicking, double-D cleric, is robbing the cradle.
Re: Teen Titans.
ReplyDeleteIf either of those girls had their legs any wider in those outfits the viewers would go to jail.
And seriously? The bottom of Raven's outfit must shoot up her butt every time she breathes and that's better than showing a bit of your stomach?
I consider myself a feminist and it's my belief that to denigrate other women for being "too sexy" for your liking makes you no better then a misogynistic pig, you make it sound like women who have large breasts and mini skirts are the reason that sexism still exists when really it's attitudes like this which bread chauvinism in our society, this is an ideology commonly known as blaming the victim, shame on you
ReplyDeleteif you seriously think that the original thundercats is better, you're delusional
ReplyDeletetake off your nostalgia goggles
Madamlucyo,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure where you got that impression in my arguments. The form of actual women is not the problem and this is absolutely nothing like blaming the victim.
Cheetara is not a real person. She is the product of someone's fantasy, just like all comic book characters.
If I had said "she is attractive and because of that is not capable of anything, because as we know, attractive women are stupid and weak," then you've have some reason to attack me. But I'm not saying that AT ALL.
I'm arguing that in modern, comic book narratives, the value of a female character is as predicated on her appearance as on her actions and words. I'm attacking the creators for following the antithesis of my aforementioned hypothetical statement.
So to be clear, women can look however they want! It's their choice and I will never judge their character based on their appearance. In this case, I was judging the character of the creators based on Cheetara's appearance, because she is a product of their minds.
Interrobangings,
ReplyDeleteOh please. I have no such goggles on. I am well aware that the original Thundercats was just awful. But, it was awful WITH STYLE.
Really? Traditional women's clothing in China and Japan showed bare midriffs?
ReplyDeleteI think that alone is enough to show you don't know enough of what you're talking about to warrant listening to at all.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI don't know whether you're agreeing with me more disagreeing. So, :-)
Aaron, you realize this will never change anything right? If you are old enough to have seen the orignal Thundercats back in 1985 why are you still watching cartoons 25 years later?
ReplyDelete"Don't you just love the sexy tilt to her stance." is what you say when comparing the two cheetara pictures, which is wrong because you chose that picture of her just to say that instead of choosing a battle ready stance like the old cheetara is in. You could easily find a similar stance of the old cheetara if you had wanted to. But you didn't. Why?
ReplyDeleteYou run a cartoon blog and don't know the name of the Teen Titans cast?
ReplyDeleteShut the fuck up.
Cheetara can beat the shit out people, she's also a fictional cat person with an idealized body, just like Lion-o and Tygra. Who gives a flying fuck if they show off said idealized body. Especially when the show isn't sexist.
Stop whining and trying to find misogyny in something so trivial.
I have to agree with the OP on most of his points. I don't have a problem with a younger version of her character especially if it's supposed to be an origin story. Even the bare midriff is passable but the rest is a definite NO.
ReplyDeleteThe new cheetara is simply not built like the athletic amazon she is! Already immature fanboys are raving about her 'kitty-titties' and how she's made them into furries *facepalm*.
Cheetara is supposed quite attractive but she is also elegant much like the gracile animal she is based on! I went ahead and made modification to her design to show people exactly what I mean:
http://tinyurl.com/3qhnn2f
Athenys,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the image. I think that it's a much better portrayal of how a woman, even a cat-like woman, would look if intending to enter actual battle. The creators should have looked to female MMA fighters for inspiration, not Playboy.
If you care more about her physical appearance than her character, maybe you're the one with the problem, not the cartoon.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteI have answered that statement in about a dozen different responses above. I don't know how I could have made myself any more clear.
I appreciate most of these points, but as a semi-athletic woman with DD breasts, it always (perhaps childishly, I guess) hurts my feelings when other women buy into the stereotype that chesty ladies can't be natural (I had these at 17) and can't be strong and save the day. You realize that's what you said in your post, and saying that a woman's personality is affected by her nature-given shape (which is out of her brain's control and does not in fact impair her intelligence) is just as terrible as what this show did to this character.
ReplyDeleteHi Hope,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry that my post was made more clear in the litany of comments, and not the body of the text.
That wasn't my point at all. Chesty women can be natural. Women of ALL shapes and sizes can be, and are, natural. It would have been my argument if I was talking about a real woman, but I'm not.
I'm attacking the product of some comic book guy's imagination, and that in comic books, women are only allowed to be heroes if they are also physically attractive.
And this problem is getting worse, with female characters so wildly proportioned that we have stick-thin, double-D boobed comic book women for EVERY character.
Her character is supposed to be an ass-kicking super ninja. Her body should reflect that. The men are supposed to be ass-kicking super brutes, and they all appear that way. She should appear muscular and athletic, but instead appears as a busty model.
I'm also in no way arguing that a woman's personality is defined by her appearance. My article had nothing to do with her character, which is pretty strong in the cartoon.
I'm saying that in comics, and in this show, her personality can be anything. She can be mean, or goofy, or demure, but she must also be eye-candy. That is what I hate. Her appearance is just as important as any actions.
Aaron, thanks for pointing this out. The kind of responses this comment section is full of is pretty much par for the course anytime you even remotely hint that something in geekdom might be sexist. It's like the commenters went picking and choosing at Derailing for Dummies.
ReplyDeleteFor more awesome critiques of illustrative portrayals of women, I highly recommend Wundergeek's commentary over at Go Make Me a Sandwich.
As an aside, I love it when folks defend this type of objectification with, "Sex sells! They're trying to appeal to a wider audience!" as if that wider audience doesn't include people other than straight men. Logic!
Quite whining like a little baby the new Cheetara! I happen to like her better than her 1900s counterpart. It's not just her 2000s' appearance that makes me like her. It's also her character that draws me to her.
ReplyDeleteEither you accept the new Cheetara as she is or ignore her and like she was never made.
Marchioness,
ReplyDeleteI love that site! I discovered it awhile back from an article on Kotaku. The venom that she receives also makes me feel better about my own experience with online misogyny. I am not alone.
I am among those who think that "sex sells" is actually BAD for business. It's somewhat like game theory, where if everyone caters to gender norms and sexual imagery, the zeitgeist remains the same. If someone wants to make money, than they have to follow the crowd.
If someone deviates from that path to appeal to another market, that new market isn't aware that they are now being catered to and ignores the product, leading to failure. So the market will only change if everyone changes at once.
But this seemingly inescapable market delineation means that FIFTY PERCENT of a possible market is being ignored! That's horrible business!
Moreover, that demographic dilemma is a logical and, truly, business fallacy. I think that with good marketing and design, games could overcome perceptions of their being exclusively for men.
But no. None of the companies want to do that. They just want to keep selling guns and boobs to men.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThank you for not reading any of the preceding comments. The comments where I answer your post entirely on multiple occasions.
whats with the copy right crap at the bottom of the page that says the stuff that you stole is yours because you say its yours that just makes you look like even more of an ass hole
ReplyDeletewhat is wrong with you
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI have no response.
google cheetara cosplay, girls want to look sexy numb-nuts, just like guys want to look all big and strong, I watched Thundercats when I was a kid too and I think the new show is awesome and I watch it with my son. Some how this new version ass-fucked your precious fucking childhood memories because you are a retarded little bitch who is whining out of his mangina for no fucking reason. Your commentors are mostly against you for a reason, you opinion like sucks man
ReplyDeleteAaron, I'm surprised you haven't commented on the unrealistic body proportions of the male characters, especially in comics. Do I detect a bit of sexism, perhaps, or is the unrealistic physical appearance of males not an issue of equal importance? (See what I did there? ;) )
ReplyDeleteA few points.
ReplyDeleteMy first is that cheetara is hmm, a cheetah right? If anything I think girls would aspire to have this cheetara's body less than the previous one as this cheetara has an animal shaped body she lacks ribs as cheetahs do, even the most malnourished girl would not be shaped like cheetara as they don't have greyhound ribs. As for her shoulders blades I think it's part of the whole cheetahs have a slight frame her 'powers' are that she's fast (like the animal) rather than burly like a lion or tiger. Maybe you need to accept that she doesnt need to be literally kicking ass to be useful to the team. A lot of women are naturally weaker than men but in a battle would maybe excel in other physical skills like speed and balance.
Second point about having issue with her playboy model boobs. It's a very old fashioned view of feminism to disregard a womans right to choose to be involved in glamour modelling, stripping etc. The whole point of womens rights is that they have the same choices as men which includes being sexy. I don't actually think big boobs are going to encourage any children to be strippers anyways, and your assumption that big boobs is all about male pleasure purely reinforces what you should be against. Cheetara maybe just has really big boobs (i have a mate size 6 natural double Es) maybe cheetara enjoys her big boobs and is proud of them rather than letting it define her as an object realises that if liono is looking at her boobs she will only feel objectified if she perceives his actions that way. We all objectify each other until we speak to each other as we only have looks to go off.
Finally as the above poster stated the men have unrealistic figures too, that's part of the charm like the original that they have such ridiculously unrealistic statures. The problem isn't sexism or this cartoon which might be following the norm but probably fashion mags etc. telling women AND men how to look however there's always been social norms on how to look they're only more intense now because of the power of consumerism and the media (seeperate subject entirely).
I really like this new thunder cats and I don't think cheetara is particularly meek altho nothing rong if she was (who are meek girls supposed to look up to aha)as she spent the first episode following and saving liono he wasn't the one rescuing her.
Lots of love, a small breasted, but large breast approving, not as thin as cheetara, stripper.
Roxanne,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. Cheetara is cheetah in name only. Just as the others look primarily like people so does Cheetara. And even if she was modeled after a cheetah, that would be a big rib cage, not big boobs.
I don't really know how to respond to your second point. I didn't do any of the things of which you accuse me. Cheetara is not a real person. She is a character created by a bunch of men. If she was a real person, your criticisms would have been well-leveled, but she's not.
Finally, yes. I agree that the male forms are unrealistic, but not any more unrealistic than the originals. Actually, Lion-O is less ripped than he was back in the 80's. It was the fact that, after twenty-five years, we took a huge step back in the presentation of the female form that ticked me off.
In the defense of star fire, her original costume was Waaaaaaay worse.
ReplyDeleteFirst off lets rain in some cold hard facts. It really doesn't fucking matter what you think, the show's staying as it is and guys like me are hot for this new Cheetara. Actually I think the panther lady from episode 7 (the book of omen flashback one) is actually hotter. And like 2 heads taller than Loin-O. I'm digressing. This is not sexist. Do you even know what sexism fucking is? Sexism would be treating women in a way that is less than men. Like not being able to vote or getting the shit beat out of them by their husbands. "Objectifying" women in a fucking cartoon isn't going to hurt anything. Nobody is going to be raped because Cheetara is a hottie. The absolute worse case is some fanboy will make his girl dress up like Cheetara some night (lucky him). You (and others) might not like this idealized sexy Cheetara. Maybe you like them plumper. In the end it doesn't matter, boycott this fucker if you want to. Still going to be here. Other things worse than this are still going to be here. I don't have any problems with any of that.
ReplyDeleteNow for some feedback on your rant. Firstly, I don't *think* her tits are DD. Maybe D, but I'm think a fairly busty C, her little frame just makes them look larger. About her frame: yeah it's very stylized in as sexy anime style but really if my own wife was drawn in this style her frame would look about the same. Not the breasts though. My wife's a hot 5'9" Han Chinese woman with B cups. Not all females are fat ass American gals.
You argument about her body not having a warrior's build is semi-valid (hey I like muscle gals too) but she is a magical damn cleric. I mean this argument is kinda like saying Superman should be built more like the Hulk. In the realm of fantasy the rules of muscle mass don't hold up. Hell, case in point: Ako from the old school anime Project Ako. As an aside it is hinted that Ako's mother and father are Wonderwoman and Superman, as a joke of course.
So all in all while you are entitled to your opinion on your own blog about whatever, expect some fanboy hate, mate. It would be better for you to focus on things you DO like about your favorite cartoon gals rather than bitch about what others like in theirs.
@ Anonymous #5,000
ReplyDeleteYou're right. It really doesn't fucking matter what I think. Likewise, it doesn't matter what you think. So why are you commenting?
I'm sorry to open with something so condescending, but you did, so I'm responding in kind.
What you describe might have a sexist root to it, but that's not sexism. It's misogyny, violence, and crime.
Sexism is making judgments or acting based on the sex of a person, and I've explained why I feel that the show is doing this.
All of the other Thundercats are ripped, rippling specimens that seem ostensibly capable of fighting. Only Cheetara requires the excuse of "it's a fantasy universe." If all of the characters were fey, fleet-of-foot super warriors my argument would be void. But they aren't, so it isn't.
Basically, Cheetara has been turned into wank-off material. Which, as I have said, is fine! Comic book women look stupid, but that's what the market wants, so more power to 'em.
This cartoon was meant for boys, though. Boys that are growing up in an already sexist, sex-obsessed media environment. We don't want the cartoons that are meant for them to further this bias.
Right, just saw this, and tho' it's old, I want to offer my piece.
ReplyDeleteOld Cheetara:
Shoulder muscles to keep up head - Her shoulders in that picture actually have little to no ivisble curving to indicate musculature. In fact there isn't a whole lot of defined muscle on her body. Not saying the new versian has it either, mind you. Not that bigger means stronger, look at Olympic Champion gymnasts.
Smaller, athletic breasts good in actual battle - Good for her for being born like that according to the studio. I assume you aren't trying to say that her physique which was shaped by her genes, not her training, "should" logically be the most suited for battle?
Thick trunk indicates organs and muscles - Not necessarily. It has just as much to do with skeletal structure.
Athletic, battle-ready stance - That stance isn't battle-ready anywhere. Legs spread wide, straigh out the sides? She's completely off-balance and can't leap or lunge or dodge. Her knees aren't even bent. Her arms? Her right, BEHIND her center of gravity, which by the way is far too high up, ALONG with her weapon - what is she going to do with it back there? Her left hand, held out to the left side, leaving her open. Her torso and chest shoved forward. She's basicallt saying "Attack me and tear me apart, because I have zero defense, lousy balance and lousier mobility." What's up with her long hair anyway? Have you tried playing, say, basketball or tennis with hair that long? You'll lose, quite simply, because it really, really gets in the way. A little moving around in combat and she'd be killed while unable to see anything because her face would be full of hair. Compare to the new design, which has short bangs in the face instead.
New Cheetara:
Looking womanly is out. Looking 14 is in! - Funny how you say 17 in the text later. Still, I really don't see the relevance, especially not if she looks 17. That's one year from being an actual adult in most countries.
Shoulder muscles? What shoulder muscles? - I agree, she hasn't got much bulk, then again, neither did Bruce Lee.
Athletic Boobs? Hah! Give that bitch implants! - Oh no, boobs on television... Hey, I know, let's pretend that she was "born with genes" and not "modelled after warrior mold". And come ON, boobs like that might not ne the NORM, but they aren't in any way UNREALISTIC without implant.
Who needs ribs? Not Cheetara! - She's an alien, isn't she? Rib size only indicates ONE thing, and that's the size of her lungs. Look up marathon runners, martial artist etc. - you'll find that many have compact ribcages, because hey, it's training that affects your oxygen uptake in the end.
Actual clothes are so 80's. We need bare midriff! - Are you going to say that her showing off LESS than ACTUAL 17 year old girls do nowadays is a bad bad thing? Are you saying that her OLD costume wasn't as revealing as they could get away with during the time to avoid "moral" preachers? That her friggin' SWIMSUIT was "more decent" than her current outfit which still covers more than the average swimsuit of today? Standards change, man. Imagine if they had seen the 80's costume during the 50's on TV. Besides, bare midriff offers about as much protection at the old swimsuit, that is, pretty much none at all in both cases.
Don't you just love the sexy tilt to her stance - Try to trace her spine. It's actually much straighter than the 80's picture. That it looks "tilted" has alot to do with that weird right hip of her, but that looks more like a drawingboard error to me. Look at the 80's picture again. She's basically shoving her admittedly smaller breasts towards the sky. And you can't seriously mean that those two screenshots are THE ones that exemplifies their stances during the entire show, right?
Want me to go on?
He doesn't have anything to say to that, thats funny.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that I have nothing to say, it's that I have answered all of those arguments repeatedly in the above comments.
ReplyDeleteNot really well though, you just come of as a whiny ass hole
ReplyDeleteWhile I can't fully and correctly judge myself, I definitely do not come across as whiny. Belligerent, misandristic, paranoid: any of those would at least be possible, but not whiny.
ReplyDeleteAny points that you feel that I have not addressed effectively, feel free to argue that point. I will address it.
Whiny
ReplyDeleteThank you for adumbrating your points so maturely and effectively. I will consider them.
ReplyDeleteAs a 16 year old (flat chested I hasten to add) girl, who watched the majority of the original Thundercats and has begun watching the new series, I can honestly say that I too am angry about Cheetara's new looks.
ReplyDeleteFor one she is supposed to resemble a cheetah, if a cheetah was turned into an anthropomorphic being it wouldn't have breasts the size of hers, simply because they're supposed to be slim and don't carry much fat. Breasts are basically bags of fat so unless she's had implants, I'm not quite sure what happened... I am also slim hence why I am so flat of ze chest. Therefore my point has sufficient evidence for your incredibly small minds.
Also lets remember, incredibly annoying anons, that this is still a childrens cartoon! Imagine! And whilst you sit there, with your tissues and vaseline oogling at Cheetara's new figure, young girls are also watching the show, and are now looking up to their new cartoon heroine. However insignificant watching cartoons as a kid may seem, it plants a suggestion in your head, and these suggestions join up with other similar suggestions and create schemas. This schema seems to be - women have large breasts, hourglass figures and nice long hair. These are very desirable traits and nothing else shall be accepted.
This is why we have young girls with eating disorders and others who feel that they have nothing to offer the world other than their looks.
Whilst I'm at it, Cheetaras new figure didn't really boost my self esteem either.
But it's okay really cos its all majik like and she is proppa fit and shit liek dat *fapfapfapfap*
Thundercats HOE!
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to see that this show elicited a similarly angry response from others.
You hit the nail on the head with your exclamation of its status as a children's show. Boobs and butts for full-grown men? Sure, why not. But when it further projects extant sexist societal and gender norms onto impressionable kids, I have a problem with it.
get over it
ReplyDeleteur all seriously gona sit an take time to argue about the looks of a cartoon character? Ever thought that maybe for a kids show its going to attract more teens and adults who use to watch it that actually know the name of the show? u know the people who grew up on it when they were still a new show or saw it on reruns in elementary instead of kids just learning about the thundercats but are more interested in other stupider shows? As for the take on the shape of her body probably because they wanted a better looking mix of animal and human traits is what gave birth to her slimmer body then anything else ever think of that? no because u want to make it about sex when it could just be more of the animal showing then human like its suppose to be. Ever see a cheetah picture? Those things are skinny as hell and looked starved even when their fat and it makes u wonder where the hell their insides are. This is a new version so new looks should be expected meaning new people working on the story want to make the characters how they think they should look based off the human animal look that was the beginning idea without just copying the old version and saying its new. So shes been made hotter so have the guys it goes both ways and arguing doesn't change it or anything else all it does is waste time and give people a reason to bitch. Watch it or dont its that simple ur opinion is urs and other peoples opinions are theirs respect eachothers or just shut the hell up for the sake of all.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteI have answered every single thing that you said in previous comments. Please go read them for my response.
Moreover, you might want to work on your writing skills. It took me more time than I would have liked to parse your mindbarf.
excuse me for not using big words to sound imporant like u mr. whiny ass. U just want to bitch about a show to make points that no one cares about because they just want to watch the show and enjoy it. OH but no not so long as theres a hot chick running around kicking more ass then any of the guys, she out classes them in speed an skill but because her boobs are big its sexist. Believe or not there are athletic girls with big boobs in the world and if u find big boobs such a big deal then watch cartoons where the heroine has small or no boobs an shut up. I think just about everyone is sick of ur brainbarf fest on this site or didn't u notice ur the only damn one bitching for over half the page?
ReplyDeleteNot using big words? Are you thirteen or from Mississippi? Are you sure that you don't want to disparage all of the books that I might have read and all of the fancy degrees that I might have earned?
ReplyDeleteActually, I'd assume that many people do care about this. This post is easily my most popular post with over 20,000 views. And you cared enough to post not one, but two comments.
"Believe or not there are athletic girls with big boobs in the world"
That is true. But not in the elite world. Look at Olympians. Try to find one with large boobs. One or two may exist, but I doubt even that.
"I think just about everyone is sick of ur brainbarf fest on this site or didn't u notice ur the only damn one bitching for over half the page?"
Go read that post about sexism in comics to which I linked at the end of the article. Many people care about this and agree with me, they just choose to not bother posting because they don't want to deal with the misogynistic vitriol spewed by immature, half-literate, little pricks like you.
you gay
ReplyDeleteConsidering the general content of this website, that accusation is actually funny.
ReplyDeleteI am usually one of the people against you, but your right about that one.
ReplyDeleteThanks. I get it right, every now and then.
ReplyDeleteIf all of the other feminists woke up one morning and decided that double-D cups and bare midriffs were a sign of empowerment, you would too. Go back to your hive-mind. People like you are the reason why this world is so screwed up.
ReplyDeleteWait, I take that back! I should be ashamed I was born with a Y chromosome and get horny looking at boobies and girl-butts! I will repent my evil ways and cut off my cock! WAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!
I don't watch cartoons to look at bodies with proper proportions, I watch cartoons to watch fucking cartoons. Besides, this argument could just as easily be turned around for men. No man has the kind of body as any of the examples you showed, their exaggerated and idealized because its a cartoon and it holds interest. Get over yourself.
ReplyDeleteWell, I am not feminist at all, and I think that new cheetara shape is not good for fighter. The old one was very athletic and sexy too, but this new one is just sexy. But there is nothing to do, that is a new standard, even if unrealistic. By the way, I love to see sexy cartoon women. But I am sorry, this one can´t fight a kid!
ReplyDeleteI know I am jumping in late, but I have to make a comment earlier about female heros and villains needing to be sexy. Something that aaron said earlier. I can list a few, just for a few heros. Fantasic fours she-thing, galactic guardians nikki and replica, Infinity watch gamora, x-men Where should I start, Karima Shapander aka omega prime sentinal, kitty pride was never over-sexed, the original rogue was ugly, Karma, Hope summers (Amazon type of build, I'm not talking about the wonder woman type), Dr. Moira Mactaggert, Lilandra Neramani, All the female morlocks except calisto, and she didn't really have breasts to speak of, Sunpyre, Dust, Blindfold, Cipher, Bling, Onyxx, and lady deathstrike. To be quite honest a lot of them don't look that great, and almost no bare middriff. I could go into villians and those that are neither heros or villians. I won't say that there isn't alot of sexism, and I do like the older cheetara more. You take something like she-thing, which is basically thing slightly shorter and with breasts... tell me how sexy that is. I want to point out that there are alot of women heros that aren't nessicarily all about sex. Tygra, cheetara and panthro are older than the other three and to be honest Tygra was the oldest, aside from jaga and one other that came later in the series, but I can't remember his name. One more thing to show you that a woman with a c-cup and up can be a professional athlete, I will give you five names and their sport out for the 22 I found. Clair Bidez- Snowboarder, Maria Kirilenko- Tennis player, Leryn Franco- Javalin thrower, Alicia Sacramone- gymnist, Gina Carano- MMA. Sexism is also a two-way street, men are musclebound idiots, women are sex objects. Sometimes I think men get it worse than women, if a woman speaks out about it its ok, if a man does its a terrible travesty. There is just so much to cover to do it in one posting. Both sides are affected by sexism.
ReplyDeleteHaving watched 23 episodes of this series, the reboot it quite good!
ReplyDeleteI don't mind the new design as the taste of the design is based of the current culture standard. The whole design of the original series was from the 80s when leotards, mom jeans and fluffy hair-dos are norm. Every era has its preference for sexiness. But yes Aron I do have to agree that the image these new generation of anime-based girls give a wrong impression of what women should look like. I guess the culprit is the whole anorexic image created by the mass media. And this certainly didn't help that the design is handled by a Japanese studio.
Dude.
ReplyDeleteBoys have been growing up in a sex obssessed media culture since the sixties. Why do you think this is somehow new?
Hell, look at Daphne and Velma from Scooby Doo. Daphne, pretty but an airhead, goes off with pretty boy Fred, implied frequently they're just making out. Velma? Smart, but plain, implied to be lesbian. Can't do anything without her glasses and loses them in almost every episode.
Sexism in cartoons aimed at kids is not new. The only thing I get out of it is it screwed up your childhood memories, so you're mad. BTW, you realize Cheetara is an adult female, naked with a pubescent boy in the first episode of the original in his bedroom right? What sexual overtones?
From what I've seen, it's a good show. A lot of the original character virtues she had in the first are present in the second. But, you can look at it skin deep.
To comment, you have obviously made it this far.
ReplyDeleteWhatever criticisms that you can conjure, trust me, I have answered them at least twice in the threads above. Go and read them.
I'm tired of getting the same damned comments over and over. And this is only in the comments that I have allowed to be posted. I've received hundreds more with the same arguments, while also being filled with near-illiterate invective.
If, after you read EVERY comment, you think that your criticism has yet to be covered, please, feel free to post it. I will respond.
This post on Cheetara seems to be just another PC rant that we see on a never ending basis, would you ever write a post about how portraying Homer from the Simpsons as a moron is sexism against men?
ReplyDeleteIf you really want to scream outrage at something on the TV that is sexist or racist watch the commercials between the shows for that, I defy you to find a commercial that doesn't show a white man breaking into someones home , stealing someone indentity, being portrayed a sex offender or a just plain being an scum bag.
Also you come off as bit of a grammer-nazi.
Sincerely,
The Internet.
Nothing you have said negates what I argued. Congratulations.
ReplyDeleteI have seen every episode so far and haven't thought of cheetaras tits once.people like you pointing shit out that no one cared about or noticed is why kids are going to have sexual hangups.Shes an individual female character period with strengths and weaknesses, you're the one singling her out.Have you ever even seen DD's.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, lots of people care about this, as you can tell from my post and from the violent response to it.
DeleteSecond, she's not an individual, she's a character, created by people, and manifesting THEIR thoughts and motivations.
Moreover, I am not the only one singling her out, because you likely searched for her, and most of the people above probably searched for her.
As an experiment, I checked various searches in Google that are likely to bring people to this page. The Number-1 search is for "new cheetara."
People ARE singling her out, and that's why I did, because I knew they would.
Your last question is breathtakingly inane. Congratulations.
I don't think its inane at all.Every complaint you have made is so exaggerated beyond the reality of the issue at hand you destroy your own credibility.Her breast aren't even close to DD's and the fact that your so obsessed with them says more about you than anybody else.
DeleteAlso I collect 80s toys,I was doing some research on the value of certain carded thundercats figures and thats how i ended up here,youre comparison picture caught my attention that's all.
I think you assume a lot about other people based on your own feelings.Shes a well balanced character that has anime proportions(have you compared panthro's waist to his chest width? hes ridiculously disproportionate) shes strong confident and her boobs just aren't that big and shes dressed like someone who needs freedom of movement ,also shes covered in fur so nothings really ever exposed.
Also this blog is called cartoon vixens and has sexy cartoons pasted all over it.
Listen,I have a daughter and I want her to be a strong ,confident ,independent woman one day and as her father its my job to communicate the difference between art and real life to her so she has the faculties to watch thundercats and understand ITS A FUCKING CARTOON! and in no way represents real life the same way i teach my son that firearms are to be taken seriously and you cant go around shooting people because people do it in video games.Your suggestion that kids cant tell the difference between an exaggerated cartoon world (the word cartoon means "a non realistic caricature" by definition")and real society says more about parenting than anything.
My son is respectful to woman and my daughter has been on the honer roll for 3 years,is 1st chair violin in her schools orchestra and is going to be going to japan on the exchange program .I don't think thundercats has damaged either of them.
If my daughter judges herself or my son judges women because of a cartoon I have failed as a father,I am to blame for that not some escapist media.
DeleteThe question was absolutely inane. It had no bearing whatsoever on my arguments or the matter at hand. The point of the question was to nullify my arguments through belittling; saying that I lacked so much experience that my views could not be taken seriously.
DeleteIn response to this, I actually went and found clinical photos of post-op DD breasts. I think that her breasts align well with DD sizing.- http://www.aboutplasticsurgery.com/dbii/dr/Pousti_779/23-a1.jpg
Moreover, I'm not obsessed with her breasts, I'm obsessed with her gestalt and what it represents, as I have explained in the above comments.
I didn't assume that you came here via that search, my point was that the majority of people do, and that nullified your argument that no one cares about this.
On her overall presentation: Yes, her character is actually quite good. I like her, I very much like the show, and I think it's more than a worthy successor to a show that is really only good through the lens of nostalgia. The problem is as I have adumbrated above. Namely, female characters are not just judged on their character, but also on their appearance.
Yes. I have addressed the apparent contradiction. The problem is that I am explicit. I am not subtly delivering values and socioethical judgments in my work. Moreover, I am not against the sexualization of women, I'm against the sexualization of women to the detriment of other characteristics. That's why I have no problems with porn, but when someone talks about a female politician's appearance it gives me an aneurysm.
I appreciate the importance of parenting to help frame, synthesize, and understand a complex world; my education is in psychology. I'm also glad that you are aware that the world can be a problematic experience. But that should, in my opinion, only make you more attuned to the subtle ways in which women experience prejudice.
That's why I don't like the new Cheetara. In the past, females in children's shows were portrayed in highly negative, Disney-like ways: meek, nurturing, demure, etc. We had a few standouts, and they became more common as the 1970's went along, but the trope was there and very persistent, as illustrated by the bodily positioning of the "Teen Titan" characters above.
We have come a long way toward evicting that trope from pop culture (the color-coded pink and blue toy aisles at Target don't seem to indicate that, though). Unfortunately, and the point of this article, is that it has been replaced with "sassy" girls who are increasingly sexualized (hello Bratz!). This systemic sexualization is damaging for both boys and girls alike, and the fact that it is leaking into children's entertainment is disturbing.
It's disturbing because the way that children internalize their world isn't as simple as you make it out to be. The best parenting in the universe cannot compensate for an entire society with these threads running through it. For example, I knew that the original Transformers cartoon was just a cartoon, but my ideal character was heavily influenced by the honor and bravery of Optimus Prime. It sounds stupid, but what do you want, I was six.
I never said that Thundercats alone would damage kids, but the society that was the wellspring of its creation will and does damage kids. It reminds me of a funny cartoon: http://www.snotm.com/2010/06/blog-post.html
Your kids sound amazing. But with your son, it's more than just treating women with respect; it's understanding that they are simply people. There is no need to treat WOMEN with respect when it's understood to treat PEOPLE with respect. A society that encourages the separation of the sexes, and distorts one’s views of the other, does not help with this.
And I think that you should be more concerned about your daughter (although I certainly do not assume to know how to best parent your child), especially considering that it sounds like she is an exceptionally high-performer. We have reams of evidence showing that she is going to have a hard time being taken seriously in the future, precisely because of the values inherent in the new Cheetara: her appearance matters just as much, if not more than, her skills.
DeleteShe will be harassed on the streets. She will be passed over for promotions. She will be objectified. That is criminal. And Cheetara represents a small but not insignificant element of the society that allows that behavior to happen.
My whole life is concern for both of my kids,all i can hope to do is give them the tools to be confident and make good decisions for themselves.And please don't misunderstand, I said women because it was pertinent to the discussion.I teach my kids to have respect for people in general most of all themselves.
DeleteAnyway ,thank you for the mature. intelligent response .I respect your opinion and agree with what you have to say about the objectification of woman,but i think your problem with cheetara is simply a design aesthetic more than deliberate objectification.
I think more likely male artist objectify women simply because their male and are attracted to the "ideals" media has created over the years and so they draw what they think is attractive.Why would you knowingly create a hero you thought was unattractive? It is a business after all and lets be honest,even young boys like pretty girls.I'm not saying Its right,but its not likely to change.of course I think its ridiculous to compare real life to a cartoon that has no basis in reality to begin with.Its fantasy and should be treated as such.Cheetaras not a person ,she's paint on a plastic film.
The real threats to young woman I think are the Lohans and snookies of the world and all the trashy people, male and female on "reality TV".!6 and pregnant! seriously? These are real people,kids don't understand that these peoples lives are not normal or healthy,It makes me sick and is exactly why i don't have cable anymore.
By the way,I'm 37 and I'm still influenced by the honor and bravery of Optimus.... 8)
I'm sorry that I jumped on your choice of terms. I meant it only as a point of clarification, not as a statement that you were incorrectly teaching your children values.
DeleteI agree with your assessment. I think that most guys objectify without really realizing that they do it. It's simply part of our culture (TV, movies, billboards, fashion, toys, etc.). They don't really mean anything nasty by it. But a semi-unconscious decision is still open to criticism, especially vis-a-vis the wider society. And when that decision manifests an element of society that is demonstrably very harmful, I don’t find it surprising when the reaction from many (such as me) is aggressive and angry.
Also, I don't think sexuality is wrong. Boys like girls, and we all like pretty people as well. Catering this isn’t wrong. Nor do I think creating attractive heroes is wrong. I think that it is wrong when the appearance of the character becomes as important as the actions of the character. Males of all shapes and sizes are allowed to be heroes, but females are not only all attractive, to make things worse, they are all sexualized (this latter part is becoming more common). The males are idealized forms, but they are not sexualized. We do not get slow-motion shots of Panthro's glistening abs.
This is a trope well-represented in comic books. I think it was in the comments above, but I took an inventory of every Marvel comic character to find out if males and females are presented differently. Almost every, single hero that is deformed in some way is male (one of the rare females was a brain in a jar). The only deformed females that I could find were villains, and even then, many of them were still "hot" deformed, like Marrow or Mystique.
While I don’t LIKE that, I also don’t mind it. It’s comics written by men for men. More power to ‘em. I think that it’s stupid from a business perspective, but that’s another subject altogether. I don’t want that leaking into children’s entertainment. I want those that are creating children’s entertainment to think about what values they are communicating. It can’t be unconscious. It needs to be absolutely conscious. They need to think about not only the actions of their characters, but how their characters are “wrapped.”
Cartoons were once comically explicit about this. GI Joe had its "messages," at the end. Lead characters often had speeches about values and ideals. 1980's and early 90's cartoons especially had a penchant for having a token "kid in a wheelchair." While I don't think those things in themselves helped the world become a better place, they evinced a culture of idealism that, while naive, was at least genuine. I see that culture in shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender, and see the opposite in Thundercats. I want to see more Avatar.
And let’s never mention Snooky or the Lohans again. I think that MTV is a violently exaggerated manifestation of the systemic problems that we’ve been discussing. It is just SO over the top in every way as to beggar description.
Thank you for being polite as well. I’m sorry for being a somewhat brusque at the beginning of this. As you can see from the above vitriol that I’ve received, I’m a bit on edge about this post.
And Optimus Prime totally kicked ass. His death in the original movie was one of the most traumatizing things in my life.